For Wednesday's blog, let's consider the subplot of the play, Gloucester and his relationship with his two sons, Edgar and Edmund. How does Gloucester resemble Lear? How do the sons' motivations parallel those of Cordelia, Goneril and Regan?
Gloucester very much resembles King Lear in that they are both easily fooled. While King Lear is influenced to believe his two daughters, Regan and Goneril, love him more than Cordelia, Gloucester is influenced by Edmund to believe that Edgar is plotting against him. Ironically, Cordelia and Edgar are, in fact, the two children most loyal and loving to their fathers. In the beginning of the play, Gloucester appears to treat his two sons equally even though Edmund is a bastard child. Edmund, however, is very jealous of Edgar in that he will get his father's estate because he is the legitimate child. When Edmund begins scheming by forging a letter that reveals Edgar planning to kill his father, Gloucester plays the fool and believes him. In act II, we see Edmund take his plotting against his half brother to the next step by cutting his own arm to make it seem that Edgar has attacked him. Edmund even puts on a show acting like a victim to gain his Gloucester's sympathy. When Gloucester repeatedly asks where the man ran that attacked him, Edmund whines, “look, sir, I bleed” (pg. 1165). When Gloucester believes the lie that is was Edgar that attacked him, he sends men to find his now unloyal son. Gloucester then calls Edmund a “loyal and natural boy” (pg. 1166). Both Lear and Gloucester fall for their children's lies and plots. Cordelia is the daughter that actually loves her father yet she is the one disowned. Edgar never planed on killing his father for he was loyal yet he is the one fleeing for his life.
I agree with decaff13 in that the relationship between Gloucester and Edgar greatly resembles that of King Lear and Cordelia. However i noticed that many things were different. Edmund goes to Edgar and convinces him that he is on his side. That he is looking out not only for his best interest but also his life. When in reality, Edmund is scheming to remove Edgar and take what he (Edmund) believes is his. That is the legitimate place as son of Gloucester and inheritor of his land and wealth. While in the case of Cordelia and her sisters, there is no foul play in that they did not scheme against Cordelia. Cordelias situation was done unto her by her own free will. She made the decision to answer her father King Lear in a way that displeased him. Now the two eldest daughters are trying to be rid of King Lear altogether, while Cordelia wants to help all that she can from her place in France for the love of a father. Which in the case of Gloucester, Edmund is not trying to usurp Gloucester. Not to mention, Edgar is not receiving his treatment due to his own words and actions. He was condemned and plotted against by his half-brother Edmund. So in ways there are similarities but in truth there are just as many differences if not more. Edmund seeks to turn to the Dukes of Albany and of Cornwall against Edgar as to retain allies. Regan, who is daughter of King Lear, and wife of Duke Cornwall asks Gloucester, “Was he(Edgar) not companion with the riotous knights that tend to my father?”, Gloucester replies, “I know not, madam, Tis too bad, Tis too bad.” At this moment Edmund pipes up and says, “Yes, Madam, he was of that consort” (pg1167/95-98). Edmund is trying to put all the blame of every harmful deed that he can upon Edgar so that his “rightful place” as son of Gloucester, will soon be revoked and bestowed upon Edgar, along with all of Gloucester wealth and standing.-Queso
Although I agree with majority of what decaff13 & Queso said, they left out one main and important point about Edmund. Edmund's evil tactics have a deeper meaning. True enough, he is just as greedy as Goneril and Regan but he has a reason. It was stated that he was a bastard child and that he was jealous of Edgar, but he was jealous of Edgar for being legitimate. Not for being the heir to the fortunes. Edgar being the heir to the fortunes was simply the icing on the cake and another reason to throw in his face that he was not “full-blooded”. We know this because whole he was telling the father of what had supposedly happened, he kept mentioning the whole bastard situation (lines 49 & 68). So although Edmund is indeed an evil character similar to Goneril and Regan, he is the littlest of the three evils because he has an emotional and understandable want driving his evil. When it comes to Gloucester and King Lear, they are parallel in the fact that yes they are both “blind”. King Lear is blind to the fact that Goneril and Regan do not actually love and care for him and Gloucester, physically blind, to the fact that Edmund is playing the bastard card to seek revenge on his “birth” and to for change be put ahead of his brother. The difference between the two fathers is their emotional blindness. King Lear is driven in rage when his truthful daughter wouldn’t be fake like the other two. Gloucester was stricken with sympathy towards Edmund when he heard the story. So although the kings are both blind, they have different emotions driving their “sight”.
---Dream Big--- Edgar and Edmund’s relationship with their father Gloucester’s in a sense where there is a sense of favoritism placed over the other. In Gloucster’s family, he had one of his sons in wedlock and the other in an illegitimate affair with another woman. It is obvious that a sense of pride or favoritism would be placed on his relationship with the son he had in wedlock. Although, he has made it clear that he claims both sons as his own, that there’s a bit of shame placed on his relationship with the other one. In King Lear’s family it includes him and his three daughters are Goneril, Regan, and his favorite, Cordelia. In addition, I agree with decaff13 and Queso in a sense that both men also parallel each other due to their capability of being fooled. The two subplots parallel each other in the sense that Gloucester has one son who is honest and noble, while King Lear has one daughter who exudes great qualities as well. When Cordelia was asked to prove her love to her father, she did not lie as her sisters did, but told him the truth; that she loved him as any daughter should love her father. She took her punishment proudly rather than be dishonest with her father and aid her sisters in their manipulative plan. When Edgar and Edmund were asked if they still wanted to marry Cordelia regardless of her being disowned by her father and receiving no dowry, Edgar stayed true to his word and married her believing she was the true dowry. Edgar and Cordelia model each other, while Edmund, Goneril, and Regan’s motive parallel each other. All four of them were simply participating in king Lear’s test for the dowry. In the second act, Gloucester is fooled by his son Edmund, who led his father to believe that Edgar stabbed him in cold blood. Gloucester foolishly believes him and states, “Let him fly far. Not in this land shall he remain uncaught…” His turning his back on his son parallels King Lear’s betrayal to Cordelia.
I agree with Dream Big. Edgar and Edmund’s relationship, I think is parallel to the relationship between Cordelia and her two sister’s Goneril and Ragan (in a sense that Edmund is evil towards Edgar by trying to basically frame him).Edmund manipulates his father into believing the Edgar stabbed him in cold blood. Also, Edmund makes Edgar think he is the favorite son because Edar was an illegitimate child. When Gloucester says, “Let him fly far- Not in this land shall he remain uncaught-I never got him” in line 58-59 and 79 he is denying that he is Edgar’s father just as Lear denied Cordelia in the beginning of act 1. However, when Gloucester praises Edmund as a “loyal and natural boy,” in line 85 he acknowledges him as a true son. I believe Big Dream is incorrect in his last lines of his blog where he states that all four ( Edmund, Regan, Goneril, and Edgar) where seeking a dowry from king Lear. I believe Goneril and Regan were seeking a part of the kingdom, not necessarily Edgar. I believe Edgar left gracefully from Gloucester’s presence just as Cordelia left elegantly from king Lear. Although the two of them don’t believe in how their fathers are acting, they still respect them enough to do as they say. Edmund gets his way by Edgar leaving just as Ragan and Goneril get there way by Condelia being exiled. Lear resembles Gloucester because they are both kind of closed minded. They are both persuaded more by words than by the actions and loyalty of their sons and daughters.
Gloucester resembles Lear in several ways because they both fall quickly to what their children say. Gloucester is influenced by his ill-legitimate son, Edmund, that Edgar is plotting against him when he receives a letter of what appears to be written in Edgar’s hand writing. Gloucester falls quickly and immediately goes in search for his son Edgar. In the mean time Edmund tells Edgar that their father is after him and that Edmund…”advise you to the best. Go armed” (pg 1154 line 169). I agree with FlagDayISMYBDay in saying that Edgar is jealous that he is the legitimate son, not that he does not inherit any land or money from his father. Gloucester loves his sons the same and does not let the fact that one is ill-legitimate and the other is biological. He treats them the same and has no favorites. Like Kind Lear, he is also easily persuaded from his two daughters that they actually love him. Instead they plot against him and tell him a lie. Cordelia is the only daughter that tells the truth, because she truly loves her father and does not want to hurt him. Gloucester and Kind Lear are the same in that they both fall for their children’s plots. They are easily persuaded even though they love their children the same. They believe their children and think that they would never do anything this cruel to them. They do not listen to the honest child, but instead go along with what they think is right.
Fruitloop23 The persuasive actions of King Lear and Gloucester's children are those that are found every day in a parent-child relationship.Although it may not be to the extent of cutting your own flesh to make your brother look bad,children will say or do things that are pleasing to their parents in order to get what they want. Lear and Gloucester are both fooled by their children in believing that their children love them to the extent they say they do. King Lear asks his three daughters Goneril,Regan and Cordella to describe their love for him. In return he receives dishonest and over exaggerating answers from Goneril and Regan but is faced with the truth from Cordella.Cordella is the only daughter that tells the truth but she is rejected because her father is not pleased with how she describes her love. While the other two daughters go into great and tacky detail about their love,Cordella tells her father she loves him like a daughter loves their father.Glauster, the father of Edmund,the ill legitimate son and Edgar the legitimate son is also fooled like King Lear.Edmund, the dishonest son, has a ton of dishonest schemes up his sleeve to try and convince his father that Edgar is the bad son. In Emily Locker's post, she explains the part where Glauster receives a letter and Edmund convinces him to believe that Edgar wrote the letter,making Edgar look bad. This is a great example that proves the level Edmund will go to in order to get what he wants from his father. On page 1165 Edmund says," Look sir,i bleed"(line 41). This also shows the extent he goes by cutting his own flesh on his arm to make his farther thing that Edgar harmed him.Although the daughters of King Lear do not perform awful schemes against each other like Edmund does towards Edgar, both King Lear and Glauster are fooled in the way that their children truly love them.
I agree with decaff13, as that there are parallels in character between King Lear and Gloucester. But also between Edgar and Cordelia. King Lear and Gloucester are both being duped, in one way or another, by their children. King Lear, by giving his land to his two daughters with gilded love and Gloucester, by being persuaded that his son Edgar, is out to kill him for his will. Also to note about these two characters is how hasty they are to give out their compassion. Lear, acting out of anger in front of his pears, shuns his true loving daughter and with almost no thought at all just gives his land to the other two. Don’t you think there should be a more extensive test to discover which daughter truly loves him most, and subsequently get the best/most land? And Gloucester is so quick to trust Edmund in his ploy to turn him against his true son, Edgar. With little to no evidence Gloucester automatically says to Edmund “Loyal and natural boy, I’ll work the means to make thee capable.”(pg 1166 ln 85-86) It just seems a little strange to be that two characters, ones with power even, would be so absentminded in their choices. This decision making process leads me to believe that these two charters let their pride get in the way of thoughtful choices. The relationships between the two groups of children are similar, but different. Edmund was in for no land or money at all, so you can’t blame that bastard for trying. He was just trying to get something out of nothing and I accuse Gloucester of more wrongdoing in being so quick to trust Edmund. Goneril and Regan also wanted land, as did Edmund, buts it’s not that they wanted land; They wanted MORE land. The two sisters are much less moral considering that even without their lies, they would still have a huge piece of land, a castle, a moat with the alligators and everything. If Edmund hadn’t lied he would just end up on the streets like a bum. So although their plan to acquire land and wealth is similar, their motives are extremely different given their social place in society.
I agree with decaff13 that Gluoucester is much like King Lear in that he is easily fooled and manipulated. Gloucester is fooled by Edmund into believing Edgar is a nefarious son conspiring an attack on him. When it is actually Edmund who is the wicked one, lying to his father blatantly to serve underlying motives. It is exactly what Lear did, he listened so easily without measure to the lies of Regan and Goneril. Their true intentions were to attain the wealth of their father, at the expense of his health and integral love. While it was Cordelia who was the true daughter, banished for her desire to prove her love and not prove it by shaky words. And so, Edmund conspires against Edgar by forging a letter. He shows it to Gloucester and he quickly believes it and puts a price on the head of his loyal son. Edmund's reasons are just like Regan and Goneril's, wealth and ambition alone. With Edgar removed, he will gain the legitimacy of the true son and receive all the land and inheritance that Edgar would have received. Here in Act II, Edmund reveals himself: "Legitimate Edgar, I must have your land. Our father’s love is to the bastard Edmund as to the legitimate. Fine word—“legitimate”! well, my legitimate, if this letter speed, and my invention thrive, Edmund the base shall top the legitimate. I grow; I prosper. Now, gods, stand up for bastards!" Wickedness displayed through the children, one being true, as the fathers operate in the lack of discernment.
Gloucester very much resembles King Lear in that they are both easily fooled. While King Lear is influenced to believe his two daughters, Regan and Goneril, love him more than Cordelia, Gloucester is influenced by Edmund to believe that Edgar is plotting against him. Ironically, Cordelia and Edgar are, in fact, the two children most loyal and loving to their fathers. In the beginning of the play, Gloucester appears to treat his two sons equally even though Edmund is a bastard child. Edmund, however, is very jealous of Edgar in that he will get his father's estate because he is the legitimate child. When Edmund begins scheming by forging a letter that reveals Edgar planning to kill his father, Gloucester plays the fool and believes him. In act II, we see Edmund take his plotting against his half brother to the next step by cutting his own arm to make it seem that Edgar has attacked him. Edmund even puts on a show acting like a victim to gain his Gloucester's sympathy. When Gloucester repeatedly asks where the man ran that attacked him, Edmund whines, “look, sir, I bleed” (pg. 1165). When Gloucester believes the lie that is was Edgar that attacked him, he sends men to find his now unloyal son. Gloucester then calls Edmund a “loyal and natural boy” (pg. 1166). Both Lear and Gloucester fall for their children's lies and plots. Cordelia is the daughter that actually loves her father yet she is the one disowned. Edgar never planed on killing his father for he was loyal yet he is the one fleeing for his life.
ReplyDeleteI agree with decaff13 in that the relationship between Gloucester and Edgar greatly resembles that of King Lear and Cordelia. However i noticed that many things were different. Edmund goes to Edgar and convinces him that he is on his side. That he is looking out not only for his best interest but also his life. When in reality, Edmund is scheming to remove Edgar and take what he (Edmund) believes is his. That is the legitimate place as son of Gloucester and inheritor of his land and wealth. While in the case of Cordelia and her sisters, there is no foul play in that they did not scheme against Cordelia. Cordelias situation was done unto her by her own free will. She made the decision to answer her father King Lear in a way that displeased him. Now the two eldest daughters are trying to be rid of King Lear altogether, while Cordelia wants to help all that she can from her place in France for the love of a father. Which in the case of Gloucester, Edmund is not trying to usurp Gloucester. Not to mention, Edgar is not receiving his treatment due to his own words and actions. He was condemned and plotted against by his half-brother Edmund. So in ways there are similarities but in truth there are just as many differences if not more. Edmund seeks to turn to the Dukes of Albany and of Cornwall against Edgar as to retain allies. Regan, who is daughter of King Lear, and wife of Duke Cornwall asks Gloucester, “Was he(Edgar) not companion with the riotous knights that tend to my father?”, Gloucester replies, “I know not, madam, Tis too bad, Tis too bad.” At this moment Edmund pipes up and says, “Yes, Madam, he was of that consort” (pg1167/95-98). Edmund is trying to put all the blame of every harmful deed that he can upon Edgar so that his “rightful place” as son of Gloucester, will soon be revoked and bestowed upon Edgar, along with all of Gloucester wealth and standing.-Queso
ReplyDeleteAlthough I agree with majority of what decaff13 & Queso said, they left out one main and important point about Edmund. Edmund's evil tactics have a deeper meaning. True enough, he is just as greedy as Goneril and Regan but he has a reason. It was stated that he was a bastard child and that he was jealous of Edgar, but he was jealous of Edgar for being legitimate. Not for being the heir to the fortunes. Edgar being the heir to the fortunes was simply the icing on the cake and another reason to throw in his face that he was not “full-blooded”. We know this because whole he was telling the father of what had supposedly happened, he kept mentioning the whole bastard situation (lines 49 & 68). So although Edmund is indeed an evil character similar to Goneril and Regan, he is the littlest of the three evils because he has an emotional and understandable want driving his evil.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to Gloucester and King Lear, they are parallel in the fact that yes they are both “blind”. King Lear is blind to the fact that Goneril and Regan do not actually love and care for him and Gloucester, physically blind, to the fact that Edmund is playing the bastard card to seek revenge on his “birth” and to for change be put ahead of his brother. The difference between the two fathers is their emotional blindness. King Lear is driven in rage when his truthful daughter wouldn’t be fake like the other two. Gloucester was stricken with sympathy towards Edmund when he heard the story. So although the kings are both blind, they have different emotions driving their “sight”.
---Dream Big---
ReplyDeleteEdgar and Edmund’s relationship with their father Gloucester’s in a sense where there is a sense of favoritism placed over the other. In Gloucster’s family, he had one of his sons in wedlock and the other in an illegitimate affair with another woman. It is obvious that a sense of pride or favoritism would be placed on his relationship with the son he had in wedlock. Although, he has made it clear that he claims both sons as his own, that there’s a bit of shame placed on his relationship with the other one. In King Lear’s family it includes him and his three daughters are Goneril, Regan, and his favorite, Cordelia. In addition, I agree with decaff13 and Queso in a sense that both men also parallel each other due to their capability of being fooled. The two subplots parallel each other in the sense that Gloucester has one son who is honest and noble, while King Lear has one daughter who exudes great qualities as well. When Cordelia was asked to prove her love to her father, she did not lie as her sisters did, but told him the truth; that she loved him as any daughter should love her father. She took her punishment proudly rather than be dishonest with her father and aid her sisters in their manipulative plan. When Edgar and Edmund were asked if they still wanted to marry Cordelia regardless of her being disowned by her father and receiving no dowry, Edgar stayed true to his word and married her believing she was the true dowry. Edgar and Cordelia model each other, while Edmund, Goneril, and Regan’s motive parallel each other. All four of them were simply participating in king Lear’s test for the dowry.
In the second act, Gloucester is fooled by his son Edmund, who led his father to believe that Edgar stabbed him in cold blood. Gloucester foolishly believes him and states, “Let him fly far. Not in this land shall he remain uncaught…” His turning his back on his son parallels King Lear’s betrayal to Cordelia.
I agree with Dream Big. Edgar and Edmund’s relationship, I think is parallel to the relationship between Cordelia and her two sister’s Goneril and Ragan (in a sense that Edmund is evil towards Edgar by trying to basically frame him).Edmund manipulates his father into believing the Edgar stabbed him in cold blood. Also, Edmund makes Edgar think he is the favorite son because Edar was an illegitimate child. When Gloucester says, “Let him fly far- Not in this land shall he remain uncaught-I never got him” in line 58-59 and 79 he is denying that he is Edgar’s father just as Lear denied Cordelia in the beginning of act 1. However, when Gloucester praises Edmund as a “loyal and natural boy,” in line 85 he acknowledges him as a true son. I believe Big Dream is incorrect in his last lines of his blog where he states that all four ( Edmund, Regan, Goneril, and Edgar) where seeking a dowry from king Lear. I believe Goneril and Regan were seeking a part of the kingdom, not necessarily Edgar. I believe Edgar left gracefully from Gloucester’s presence just as Cordelia left elegantly from king Lear. Although the two of them don’t believe in how their fathers are acting, they still respect them enough to do as they say. Edmund gets his way by Edgar leaving just as Ragan and Goneril get there way by Condelia being exiled. Lear resembles Gloucester because they are both kind of closed minded. They are both persuaded more by words than by the actions and loyalty of their sons and daughters.
ReplyDeleteGloucester resembles Lear in several ways because they both fall quickly to what their children say. Gloucester is influenced by his ill-legitimate son, Edmund, that Edgar is plotting against him when he receives a letter of what appears to be written in Edgar’s hand writing. Gloucester falls quickly and immediately goes in search for his son Edgar. In the mean time Edmund tells Edgar that their father is after him and that Edmund…”advise you to the best. Go armed” (pg 1154 line 169). I agree with FlagDayISMYBDay in saying that Edgar is jealous that he is the legitimate son, not that he does not inherit any land or money from his father. Gloucester loves his sons the same and does not let the fact that one is ill-legitimate and the other is biological. He treats them the same and has no favorites. Like Kind Lear, he is also easily persuaded from his two daughters that they actually love him. Instead they plot against him and tell him a lie. Cordelia is the only daughter that tells the truth, because she truly loves her father and does not want to hurt him.
ReplyDeleteGloucester and Kind Lear are the same in that they both fall for their children’s plots. They are easily persuaded even though they love their children the same. They believe their children and think that they would never do anything this cruel to them. They do not listen to the honest child, but instead go along with what they think is right.
Fruitloop23
ReplyDeleteThe persuasive actions of King Lear and Gloucester's children are those that are found every day in a parent-child relationship.Although it may not be to the extent of cutting your own flesh to make your brother look bad,children will say or do things that are pleasing to their parents in order to get what they want. Lear and Gloucester are both fooled by their children in believing that their children love them to the extent they say they do. King Lear asks his three daughters Goneril,Regan and Cordella to describe their love for him. In return he receives dishonest and over exaggerating answers from Goneril and Regan but is faced with the truth from Cordella.Cordella is the only daughter that tells the truth but she is rejected because her father is not pleased with how she describes her love. While the other two daughters go into great and tacky detail about their love,Cordella tells her father she loves him like a daughter loves their father.Glauster, the father of Edmund,the ill legitimate son and Edgar the legitimate son is also fooled like King Lear.Edmund, the dishonest son, has a ton of dishonest schemes up his sleeve to try and convince his father that Edgar is the bad son. In Emily Locker's post, she explains the part where Glauster receives a letter and Edmund convinces him to believe that Edgar wrote the letter,making Edgar look bad. This is a great example that proves the level Edmund will go to in order to get what he wants from his father. On page 1165 Edmund says," Look sir,i bleed"(line 41). This also shows the extent he goes by cutting his own flesh on his arm to make his farther thing that Edgar harmed him.Although the daughters of King Lear do not perform awful schemes against each other like Edmund does towards Edgar, both King Lear and Glauster are fooled in the way that their children truly love them.
I agree with decaff13, as that there are parallels in character between King Lear and Gloucester. But also between Edgar and Cordelia. King Lear and Gloucester are both being duped, in one way or another, by their children. King Lear, by giving his land to his two daughters with gilded love and Gloucester, by being persuaded that his son Edgar, is out to kill him for his will. Also to note about these two characters is how hasty they are to give out their compassion. Lear, acting out of anger in front of his pears, shuns his true loving daughter and with almost no thought at all just gives his land to the other two. Don’t you think there should be a more extensive test to discover which daughter truly loves him most, and subsequently get the best/most land? And Gloucester is so quick to trust Edmund in his ploy to turn him against his true son, Edgar. With little to no evidence Gloucester automatically says to Edmund “Loyal and natural boy, I’ll work the means to make thee capable.”(pg 1166 ln 85-86) It just seems a little strange to be that two characters, ones with power even, would be so absentminded in their choices. This decision making process leads me to believe that these two charters let their pride get in the way of thoughtful choices. The relationships between the two groups of children are similar, but different. Edmund was in for no land or money at all, so you can’t blame that bastard for trying. He was just trying to get something out of nothing and I accuse Gloucester of more wrongdoing in being so quick to trust Edmund. Goneril and Regan also wanted land, as did Edmund, buts it’s not that they wanted land; They wanted MORE land. The two sisters are much less moral considering that even without their lies, they would still have a huge piece of land, a castle, a moat with the alligators and everything. If Edmund hadn’t lied he would just end up on the streets like a bum. So although their plan to acquire land and wealth is similar, their motives are extremely different given their social place in society.
ReplyDeleteI agree with decaff13 that Gluoucester is much like King Lear in that he is easily fooled and manipulated. Gloucester is fooled by Edmund into believing Edgar is a nefarious son conspiring an attack on him. When it is actually Edmund who is the wicked one, lying to his father blatantly to serve underlying motives. It is exactly what Lear did, he listened so easily without measure to the lies of Regan and Goneril. Their true intentions were to attain the wealth of their father, at the expense of his health and integral love. While it was Cordelia who was the true daughter, banished for her desire to prove her love and not prove it by shaky words. And so, Edmund conspires against Edgar by forging a letter. He shows it to Gloucester and he quickly believes it and puts a price on the head of his loyal son. Edmund's reasons are just like Regan and Goneril's, wealth and ambition alone. With Edgar removed, he will gain the legitimacy of the true son and receive all the land and inheritance that Edgar would have received. Here in Act II, Edmund reveals himself: "Legitimate Edgar, I must have your land.
ReplyDeleteOur father’s love is to the bastard Edmund as to the legitimate. Fine word—“legitimate”! well, my legitimate, if this letter speed, and my invention thrive, Edmund the base shall top the legitimate. I grow; I prosper. Now, gods, stand up for bastards!" Wickedness displayed through the children, one being true, as the fathers operate in the lack of discernment.
-Annie08